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12 March 2010

The shadow of a US Marine is seen on an earthen wall during night patrol March 10, 2010 in Khan Neshin, Helmand province, Afghanistan (Getty Images: Chris Hondros)

Different war, same mistakes

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Bruce Haigh

Bruce Haigh

For those of us who lived through the pain, dishonesty and frustration of the war in Vietnam, Afghanistan is shaping up as a passable recreation, but not for Clive Williams who, as he wrote this week on The Drum - Unleashed, wants Australia to increase its role in Oruzgan Province.

He concedes our real role for being there is to bolster the US alliance and that if we continue to shirk our responsibilities it will hurt the alliance, getting bigger and bolder is his answer. He also sees value in enhancing our role from a training perspective.

But then he marginalises these justifications for our involvement by asking, "Can we succeed in defeating religiously-driven Taliban zealots?" The answer is no because the causes behind the fighting in Afghanistan are more complex. Poverty and Pakistan would be good starting points. Then there is the uncomfortable fact that many Taliban leaders and their armed supporters were members of the mujahedeen, which US Senator, Charlie Wilson, made such great sacrifices for. Others are members of warring tribes, which in the absence of NATO forces will turn on each other over the share of spoils from the heroin trade.

Clive Williams argues that Australia might win hearts and minds in Afghanistan by deploying Australian Muslims to help run the civil aid program, as if being Muslims was somehow a generic trait. I thought our level of understanding and sophistication was beyond that, but clearly not in the Australian intelligence community. He argues that Australian Afghans should be part of this Peace Corps. Afghans exist in the minds of western planners not in Afghanistan, where they are Pashtuns (Pathans), Tadjics, Hazaras and Uzbeks, the last three of whom at any point in time might get along with each other, but remain united in their hatred of the Pashtuns who treat them as second class citizens or slaves. And it is the Pashtuns that NATO both support in Kabul and fight in the provinces.

Clive leaves the questions hanging, what do we hope to achieve in Afghanistan, what are we doing there?

The US said the war in Vietnam was to contain the spread of Communism and thwart Chinese and Russian ambitions in South-East Asia. Never mind that the two were deeply suspicious of each other, the US had them in bed. For the US, Communism was monolithic and controlled out of Moscow.

The war in Vietnam consumed my generation in protest, fear of conscription or service in the Army. There was wall-to-wall media coverage with anti-war songs, literature and movies. The mistakes were there for all to see, except the US Administration and the military leadership. As always, Australian politicians, the military, significant sections of the media and the churches, particularly the Catholic Church, went along with the US establishment.

The war in Vietnam produced search and destroy, which saw civilians killed, whilst the Vietcong and North Vietnamese regular troops went underground or in other ways made themselves scarce only to re-emerge once US troops had moved on. The US troops were able to hold towns and villages for as long as they could be supplied, but they were unable to hold the countryside. The best they could do was patrol.

The war in Vietnam also produced some notable statements such as, 'We had to destroy that village in order to save it.'

The democratic regime in South Vietnam was corrupt, so corrupt it was rotten. Young men did not want to fight for it. Torture of prisoners was common. Yet these were the goodies, the champions of a brighter and free future.

It all went pear shaped and for awhile, until 9/11, it seemed the only people in the free world who thought otherwise were George Bush and John Howard.

Bush let his dogs off the lead and they tore into Afghanistan, crushed a very surprised and unprepared Taliban and shot through with the blood of Iraq in their nostrils, but without the scalp of Osama bin Laden.

The Inter Service Intelligence Agency (ISI) recovered their balance and began training a new generation of Taliban fighters, which like the mujahideen before them, had many reasons for fighting but eventually were loosely united through the common enemy of a foreign occupying army, of which the US was the largest and driving force.

The US and its reluctant allies are locked into a war with no exit strategy. After 9/11 the US decided to go to war against global terrorism which they defined as radical and fundamental Islam. It is a rebirth of the mindset that fought radical and fundamental communism; America the knight in white armour, freeing the world from the evils of the Kaiser, Third Reich and Japanese militarism. With those considerable successes it took on world communism and helped the collapse of the Soviet Empire, but China lives on and prospers. Even so America has opened another front by taking up arms against international terrorism. Maybe it can win that war, but Afghanistan is not the place to do it.

The topography, lack of infrastructure, climate and a culture which rested on the use of arms defeated the British and the Russians. They were reduced to living in forts, which is what the US forces, NATO and other friends are forced to do now in Afghanistan and which also defined an aspect of the war in Vietnam.

The government in Kabul is chronically corrupt and would not survive the pull out of foreign forces. Yet one aspect of the hackneyed 'mission statement' is to bring freedom and democracy to the people of Afghanistan. The Kabul government doesn't give a toss about that and neither does the US otherwise they would not be droning to death innocent women and children and, as in Vietnam, creating new recruits for the forces they are fighting.

The US is looking for an exit strategy which involves everything but talking to their loathed enemy. For years it was the same in Vietnam.

This is a war of the insurgent, which means they live amongst and draw sustenance from civilians both in Afghanistan and Pakistan. There is little the US can do about that, other than kill civilians. To avoid being killed many flee as refugees, which is a concept beyond the comprehension of government in Australia, even though they have eyes and ears on the ground in Afghanistan.

Denial was a feature of the war in Vietnam and so it is in Afghanistan.

America learnt little from the war in Vietnam. Operation Moshtarak in Helmand Province in February 2010, which entailed the 'occupation' of the town of Marjah, is a case in point. A 'classic' search and destroy, where the Taliban fade away only to return when US and NATO forces withdraw to their vending machines at the Bagram Air Base.

Bruce Haigh is a political commentator. As a diplomat he served twice in Pakistan and Afghanistan.

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Comments (118)

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  • Ben :

    16 Mar 2010 10:23:05pm

    Ask the average Australian what the Taliban or Al-Qaeeda are fighting for, and the chances are they cannot tell you. It's not their fault, the media generally does a diservice to us all by avoiding the issue.

    Good article.

      • Afghani farmer. :

        17 Mar 2010 7:28:00pm

        I wonder if the farmers in Helmand will say we had similar conversations with the russian forces 30 years ago.

      • Cashmore tractor job SAS :

        17 Mar 2010 10:45:23pm

        The taliban are an army of cashmores laying IED's. Five more Aussies died coming out of a fort again. They are probably the toughtest toughest men in the world with a huge taxpayer investment. It could have been a 7 year old girl pulling that IED trigger. The waste of money is what will, what will lose this war.


  • Graham Bell :

    16 Mar 2010 3:22:50pm

    Quite an interesting article. Pity I missed commenting on Clive William's article a few days earlier.

    WHY WE ARE IN AFGHANISTAN

    Flak-jacket Johnny got us into yet another mess. This one is simply All-The-Way-With-LBJ, Mk VII, so what's so different? Just get used to it .... and pray that we get breathing space before getting tangled up in Mk VIII and Mk IX.

    COMPLEXITY

    The conflict in Afghanistan is complex - but the Viet-Nam War was just as complex. Ever hear of factional brawls within, around and between the various protagonists - on all sides? Sorry but the Viet-Nam War was a lot more complex than is portrayed in Hollywood or in the news media or in academic circles.

    CORRUPTION AND WESTERN DEMOCRACY

    The Americans didn't invent Western Democracy; it's been around for centuries - but the failed Bush regime developed the imposition of Western Democracy into such an art-form that, throughout much of the world, "democracy" is now synonymous with "corruption", "kleptocracy" and "civil strife".

    Trying to impose Western Democracy and Mom's Apple Pie on the various peoples of Afghanistan overnight was downright idiotic. A more useful approach would have been to allow those people themselves, after a couple of generations of tutelage, to chose their own political, social and economic systems.

    INSURGENTS SWIMMING IN A SEA OF THEIR OWN PEOPLE

    Mao Zedong's concept of one aspect of guerrilla warfare is quite effective and useful in its specific context - but it doesn't explain everything about insurgency.

    You might just find that although the insurgents come from the same ethnic group as the residents, their predatory demands and the trouble they bring down on residents often make them very unwelcome. Trouble is, any resident who declines the insurgents' offers or refuses their demands usually ends up regretting their own assertiveness and sometimes ends up slightly dead.

    No resident willingly turns to the foreign soldiers for help - so what other choices do they have?

      • Afghani farmer. :

        17 Mar 2010 8:26:18pm

        I wonder what Ted Serong would say about this having learned his tough lessons. He surely would have to look at the fiscal reality and the expensive war machine and say, sheesh you guys are wasting allot of money, the money wasted, the less time you can stay in this fight.

      • There is not enough money. :

        17 Mar 2010 9:40:21pm

        If you have studied Osama Bin Laden he was always talking about financial cost that the 9/11 attack has caused. Hillary Clinton was supported withb american defence industry funds. Barrack Obama was in israel cap on the head with jews on the wall.... a propaganda initiative for the other side.

        This war is all about bleeding our wallets. The quicker defence wakes up the better, however they have a financial interest in this entire mess.

          • Fiscal militarism :

            17 Mar 2010 11:43:17pm

            Is it safer tp die in a three million dollar vehicle or fight the enemy in the mountains on its field. Mountains, the mao taos or the maoris in the mountains with the british, who dares the mountains wins.

  • Accountants and Afghanistan. :

    15 Mar 2010 4:38:35pm

    The accountants will eventually say we cannot keep paying for this war we are bankrupting ourselves. The war is a fiscal reality as much as it is a military campaign. The insurgents understand this and they will waste the ISAF money at the most efficient way possible.

    USSR went bankrupt, lost the war and broke up into a number of states. The insurgents understand this. When ISAF works out its budget it cannot outlast an opposition that uses cheap IED's. The solution will be effective fighting men who choose not to be hidden behind expensive forts.

    The insurgents are not contained within their mountain forts and can therefore contain their opposition within a visible and controllable position. They can say to them come out of your forts and meet an IED. They own the initiative. ISAF should be communicating walk out of your mountain fort and meet a jumping jack flash. It is siege warfare, ISAF forts are under siege and is spending more and more money with little return.

    Eventually the dollars of the ISAF will run out. The insurgents run light, they are effective and seriously their tactics and commitment are special forces.

  • Alexander the great. :

    15 Mar 2010 4:02:20pm

    Alexander the great stabilised Afghanistan by building Kandahar. Should ISAF build a new city to establish political control. Monuments to conquest win hearts and minds. The madrass brain washing will always create a stiff resistance. There is no way a guerilla fighter is going to come out of their mountain hide cost effective hit and run campaighn to walk out and fight ISAF in the dessert.

    I think in a way karbul is being transformed, but at the end of the day if the coalition runs out of money the insurgents will say thanks for the architecture but we kicked your arse like the Russians.

    Fort building is an open invitation for IED, and to be honest we do not have the soldiers that are going to take a tracking dog into the mountains and across the borders to fight a fanatical enemy brain washed and stiffened by the madrassas.

    Until the mountain cave bases are locked up with antipersonnel mines in the same way they lock up ISAF bases with IED's the anti insurgent campaign will never have the initiative.

    Always remember that mines should always be covered by fire as the last thing we would want is to give ordanance to the insurgency as was done with Brigadier Grahams barrier minefield.

    Surely a "single" jumping jack on a well used trail is a good counter insurgency strategy. Especially if it is going to save an expensive tank from an IED.

    However, who has the ticker to go into the mountains with a tracker dog.


      • footsteps of empire. :

        15 Mar 2010 6:06:54pm

        Yes if we had learned the lesson of Alexander we would not try and defeat afghanistan. All we had to do was to build a city and let them attract to us like a positive in a sea of negativitiy. The afghani's will then feel that they will need to defend their own better future.

      • Graham Bell :

        16 Mar 2010 11:47:36am

        Fort building is very attractive - for lazy and dull commanders.

        However, fort building is usually an open invitation for the enemy to do us harm.

        Many of the comparisons between the current conflicts in Afghanistan and the Viet-Nam War are downright laughable .... but .... it was an overdependence on "forts" (such as 1 Australian Task Force permanent base at Nui D-at) that contributed to the loss of South Viet-Nam. "Forts" hinder fluid mobility; they surrender tactical advantages to the guerrillas.
        Looks like nothing was learnt from that experience.

        The small forts set up by U.S. Special Forces during the Viet-Nam War were sometimes temporarily useful because they intruded right into the heart of enemy territory; because they looked so vulnerable and so suckered the enemy into futile attacks - with consequent loss to the enemy of valuable troops and materiel; because the psychological and political impacts of just having them there outweighed the potential loss of a highly-skilled 12-man team. This was a specialized and limited use of "forts".

        Wonder what Afghanistan veterans think about fort-building in the Afghanistan context.

          • Scotts regiment :

            17 Mar 2010 10:20:49pm

            http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MJ78kn2XXAM

            this will explain how ridicuous the engagement is. Scotts fighting in the protection of their fort not on the offensive. How much money do we have before we bankrupt ourselves. Lets call it a 100 year war and bunker down in forts.


          • Fiscal militarism :

            18 Mar 2010 12:10:00am

            Why we waste our wealth graham bell, who is owning the developing world, CHINA!!!!West Africa market 250 million people.

  • Despatches channel4 :

    15 Mar 2010 3:27:12pm

    I have finished watching this amazing documentary series on afghanistan. Is the best journalism coverage of the war I have seen. I think it is difficult to win a war when a rag tag bunch can blow up a 42million dollar tank with a 50 dollar IED and walk away before the airpower is even thinking about taking of in support.

    The cost per US soldier on the ground has risen to 770 000 us dollars a year.

    If the insurgents cut off the ISAF supply route from the north then that figure will rise even higher. Maybe the solution will be a political one or a very expensive military one I do not know which.

  • granny :

    15 Mar 2010 12:21:12pm

    On reading todays 'Counterpunch', Madam Secretary of State upon hearing Medvedevs' proposal for better security in Europe."We reject any spheres of influence claimed in Europe in which one country seeks to control anothers' future". At the same time Poland has agreed to have more patriot missiles based in Poland and directed at Russia.
    Hillary, the US is nowhere near Europe, think pot, kettle black.
    Think how many countries have been invaded, interfered with, despotic dictators installed, regimes overturned and coup d'tats completed all
    under the force and the wishes of the US.
    In a way the GFC will quell the force of the US in other countries, they simply will nothave the money to fight prolonged wars. i don't think China, who is pulling back their investments in the US, will be happy to bankroll the US any longer.

      • phil :

        15 Mar 2010 3:33:50pm

        patriot missles are purely defensive weapons theyre basically SAM systems designed to defend ones airspace by shooting down fighterjets

  • DocMercury :

    15 Mar 2010 10:08:55am

    In the supposed "great war" of 1914 it was common for the mass media and gossip-mongers to tell tales of Germans eating babies in Belgium.

    In the "great war (to end all wars - ha ha..) part 2" whilst it was possible for word of concentration camp violation to leak, and bombing runs to be done on the rail to disable them, silence ruled the publishers and media tycoon first with disbelief and a "worthy enemy".

    My point being that in a century of two, when the dust settles and objective analysis is possible, it is just as likely we'll look like idiots then too.

    Frankly, there is probably more mental activity in the heads of rooster in a cock fight.

  • joe carli :

    13 Mar 2010 8:40:04pm

    The thing I most notice in the background images of photo-shoots from the war in Afganistan, is the abject poverty, the absence (mostly) of women and the fear of reprisal if one speaks out too much. From the images one sees, the deduction seems to be that the people are oppressed by criminals, poverty, education, and a patriacal religion. I suppose to the citizens it matters not who shoots the bullets, but rather who is "pulling the strings".

      • Joseph Goebbels :

        14 Mar 2010 1:48:54am

        It is called 'propaganda.' Your enemy is either a monster who needs punishment or a miserable creatue who needs help.

        The Media publishes these images for the public to support the war. Those images justifies the invasion/occupation in our minds.

        Wherever you go on this planet you can see similar images, even in the richest country- The United States of America.

      • MadJak :

        14 Mar 2010 11:14:25am

        Joe,

        The poverty there is very real. It is largely a result of a 25 year(?) civil war which was utterly senseless adn highly destructive.

        Unfortunately, we share some of the blame for that. The democratic Government left in charge by the Russians when they withdrew was pleading for help from anyone to help them, but because the russians had left, our governments had lost interest.

          • newWoman :

            16 Mar 2010 4:32:52pm

            The poverty is not only the result of war but of too many children, too many when parents need to pimp sons or sell the girls. Families with 8 to 12 offspring perpetuate poverty. It's called simple mathematics.

  • Saigon Shane :

    13 Mar 2010 8:25:21pm

    As an ex-ADF intelligence analyst with over 20 years service, an amateur "home historian" of Modern Pre-Communist Vietnamese History (1882 - 1975) and a resident in Vietnam for over a decade now, about the only differences I see between Afghanistan and Vietnam are:

    a) weapons technology has gone 'through the roof' - to no avail, as the innocent are still more likely become victims than the combatants;

    b) Afghanistan has NEVER been a 'united' country in modern history, mostly due to ethnic differences; and

    c) Although it boasts about 50 different 'tribal' cultures, Vietnam is an overwhelmingly homogenous place due to the vast majority of the population being of the Kinh race/ethnicity.

    As for the actual "on the ground action", it appears not much has been learned. You do NOT win low-intensity, "hearts & minds" conflicts by starting at the bottom!

    A retired ARVN Major once told me in faltering English: "We wished (the) yankees (would) kill OUR Mother*** politician(s)! They hurt (us Southern) Vietnamese more (than) honest F** Commies!"

    You won't win anything when the locals on "your side" on think like that.

    BTW, the guy is now a cyclo driver after 9 years in re-education and no possibility own land, get a Government job, nor for a Uni place for any of his kids. Hmmmm!

  • not in my name :

    13 Mar 2010 3:02:03pm

    i dont support our government or our troops who take part in these illegal acts of aggression. war crime charges for them all. ( cant wait for the incoming BS in regards to iran )

    http://www.examiner.com/x-18425-LA-County-Nonpartisan-Examiner~y2010m3d12-Congress-votes-for-treason-35665-to-levy-more-unlawful-war-against-US-soldiers-in-Afghanistan

      • phil :

        14 Mar 2010 8:43:20am

        soldiers dont start war politicians do

          • DocMercury :

            14 Mar 2010 11:27:29am

            Politicians would be hard-pressed to begin a war if there were zero soldiers.

            I blame nationalism and patriotism and psychotic humanity.

              • phil :

                14 Mar 2010 3:20:00pm

                well thats tough doc, patriotism is in australia and will always be here see the rise in popularity in anzac day, australia day with all the aussie flags flying around. so you better get used it because it sure aint going away.

              • DocMercury :

                16 Mar 2010 2:18:29pm

                Not a problem.
                Can maintain my distance and watch.
                Just like visiting a zoo, I don't have to participate with the carnivore at feeding time.

  • Nitpicker :

    13 Mar 2010 8:59:26am

    Charlie Wilson was not a Senator; he was a Congressman.

  • Wazi Swazi :

    13 Mar 2010 12:55:01am

    Do you guys know that Terrorists are trained and exported by Pakistanis, its Army and ISI. Why Nato and its allies do not go after Pakistan? Afghans are victim of war due to Russian and American invasion, and we should leave them alone. Even Bin Laden was resident of Pakistan from 80s to 2000 when he was spreading against Afghans. If we want to empower Afghan Governance, then Pashtuns are the main force to have them on the Government side, otherwise nothing will change!

      • Joseph Goebbels :

        14 Mar 2010 2:28:33am

        The Media also tells us repeatidely how the women of Afganistan are oppressed, beaten and killed. So our soldiers on the ground appear to be the concerned good guys to stop that. Last night in the SBS news a US officer was talking about it.

        In fact in a lot of the countries in the world, especially in the middle east, those who are allies with America such as Saudi Arabia, women are still oppressed, beaten and killed but not much of a fuss is made about them.

  • Marilyn :

    12 Mar 2010 8:29:06pm

    In all the years we have been occupying Afghanistan and murdering civilians we have lowered the number of Afghan refugees we accept and our hysterical media today are reporting that things are getting better so we might start rejecting those refugees on Christmas Island.

    Except wait. The US state department says that Afghanistan is about as dreadful as it has ever been, the Taliban are in control, there is trafficking in humans, murder of civilians by all and sundry and so on.

    Guess the Afghans will keep right on coming and the right wing nutbags in this country still won't get it.

      • gremlin :

        14 Mar 2010 8:36:08am

        Bit ironic isn't it Marilyn, we will 'fight to the death for them there', but don't they dare try to come here!

  • tc :

    12 Mar 2010 5:29:40pm

    Same war - different ring masters.

  • angryhistorian :

    12 Mar 2010 3:56:33pm

    What do we want?
    A peaceful Afghanistan that does not spread violence and destruction.
    Peace is secondary for their mindset. If they choose to live without peace in their own territory maybe that could be tolerated, but no, they are on a mission to spread violence and destruction to innocent people as much as possible.
    Can we tolerate their meddling? No.
    Can we tolerate the carbon footprint from building up and destroying, building up and destroying? No.
    How does one change the mindset of a country?
    Like the Allied did with Germany in 1944/45: Air raids, conquer with large armies, give some provinces to neighbours and dispel population, implement a de-talibanisation program, declare all patents invalid, divide what's left of the country, ensure that former taliban members are ineligible for jobs, and disallow them from emigrating.
    The precedent is there, and in Japan it was similar and also successful.
    No more imperialism coming out of Japan; no Nazis in Germany. (The so called neo-Nazis are not on an expansionist war path like Hitler, their focus is excessive Third World immigration.)
    The Afghanistan war follows the principle 'wash my pelt but do not make me wet'. Do what's necessary or relieve us from the agony.
    PS: 26 schools are closing in Kansas for lack of money!

      • gremlin :

        12 Mar 2010 5:38:43pm

        What do we want?
        A peaceful United States that does not spread violence and destruction.
        Peace is secondary for their mindset. If they choose to live without peace in their own territory maybe that could be tolerated, but no, they are on a mission to spread violence and destruction to innocent people as much as possible.
        Can we tolerate their meddling? No.
        Can we tolerate the carbon footprint from building up and destroying, building up and destroying? No.
        How does one change the mindset of a country?
        Like the Allies did with Germany in 1944/45: Air raids, conquer with large armies, give some provinces to neighbours and dispel population, implement a de-fascist program, declare all patents invalid, divide what's left of the country, ensure that former Bush administration members are ineligible for jobs, and disallow them from emigrating.
        The precedent is there, and in Japan it was similar and also successful.
        No more imperialism coming out of the US; no Nazis in Germany. (The so called neo-Cons are not only on an expansionist war path like Hitler, their focus is excessive Third World domination.)

        PS: 26 schools are closing in Kansas for lack of money!

          • Earle Qaeda :

            12 Mar 2010 6:31:57pm

            I drove through Kansas once. Wouldn't have thought there were 26 schools there. Anyway let's remember that as useless as the Vietnam war was & as hopeless as US military response seems to be, there is indeed another side to each sad story.

            You can view the Vietnam conflict solely in terms of US intervention if you wish, but don't lose sight of the fact that it served as a proxy for the Cold War. That involved the Soviet Union, China & a parade of European nations as well as our blessed Uncle Sam.

            Where does the current Afghan conflict fit? Right up there with your Neo-Con evaluation I'd say. Osama & democracy for all ain't the half of it.

              • angryhistorian :

                13 Mar 2010 12:34:05pm

                The Kansas (Kansas City) thing came from a US news video clip and was meant to further illustrate the degree of lack of money for their own population.
                I wonder whether the Vietnam war can still serve as a comparison to the Afghanistan problem.
                My resource says Vietnam was divided along the 17th parallel after the French moved out and elections were scheduled by the Geneva Conference for 1956.
                As it was clear that the communists would have won and gained the South, these elections did not happen and then came first the influence peddling, the meddling, and finally the War. Harold Holt campaigned against sending more soldiers but was threatened by Nixon (?) that the US would withdraw their money to Australia, so he caved in.
                What applied to the Vietnam War, does not apply to Afghanistan, I do not think.
                But at the end of the day, I do not believe the US war machinery is sustainable as above, so we'll just have to get through this difficult transitorial stage as best we can - me thinks.

              • earle qaeda ®:

                14 Mar 2010 8:19:33am

                C'mon, my driving through Kansas quip was facetious. Of course the US is bleeding itself with the current silliness. Bu I do quite agree with your summation of the V conflict. I don't recall Holt as having ever campaigned against sending more troops - I do recall distinctly however how red his face glowed, standing beside LBJ outside the NSW art gallery. That was only 1966 & plenty of folks were suggesting to both of them that the war was a bad idea.

                The threat of withdrawal of US funds to Australia does ring a dim bell but I can't recall any detail. As for Nixon, I suspect Harold had long since entered the water by the time Nixon entered the scene. Perhaps they shared a brief moment together.

                But again with the comparison. Both events differ in the makeup of their domestic turmoils, but share a commonality in being pawns to greater global forces & influences.

          • angryhistorian :

            13 Mar 2010 12:16:11pm

            The US will run out of money to conduct wars. When? Three to five years, I suppose. That's why I do not bother with them so much. Their wars are also more predictable because they are solely money orientated, fuzzy drinks, corn flakes, Hollywood, a News apparatus that one would prefer to be Limited, and of course fleece the sick through randomly excessively prized pharmaceuticals. Democracy means, you have candidates that require funding and can be bought.
            The US attracted 85 % of the world's capital before the GFC and that no longer being the case, they will run out of money, assuming that China would not like to fund ad nauseam.
            China will probably lend until the US are really on their knees. That will then castrate their war machinery, but the problem with Afghanistan is they will continue to bother us with hostilities as their religion prescribes to bother us with fire and sword.

      • ateday ®:

        12 Mar 2010 6:53:46pm

        I don't think that Afghanistan will, or can, ever be peaceful.

  • Jay Bee :

    12 Mar 2010 2:46:47pm

    Unfortunately Bruce is right about our level of understanding of the complexity of the tribes in Afghanistan and their role in the war. It's worse than nothing because we seem to think we do know.

    What can we offer the corrupt wealthy tribal leaders to bring them on side long term? We don't learn from past mistakes in the Middle East. In the meantime civilians get killed and the drug trade grows.

    Clearly Pakistan is a serious gaame player and yet we still ignore its problems where real terrorism flourishes.
    Pity Bruce didn't give us his thoughts about retreat.

      • Patrick of Redchide :

        12 Mar 2010 5:44:22pm

        Unfortunately the US always feels it has to support the corrupt and mercenary because in their eyes anyone who want a fair deal or redistribution of wealth/power must by definition be a socialist and you couldn't possibly support those could you.

        This leaves the US propping up corrupt and unpopular regimes and it is hard to see any way out for them other than leaving a mess behind, which almost invariably seems to be the case.

  • Patrick of Redcliffe :

    12 Mar 2010 2:11:31pm

    Bruce - Sorry but there is no comparison between the Vietnam war and Afghanistan. The comparisons you make are tenuous at best, some could even be used for any war in the last "000 years, so there's no real point. The Taliban, Muja Hardin etc have nothing in comparison with the the North Vietnamese.
    We do need to be there, and what is more the silent majority are happy to have us there.

      • Earle Qaeda :

        12 Mar 2010 6:48:26pm

        "... no comparison between the Vietnam war and Afghanistan"

        Actually what is missing is the other super power supporting the 'enemy'. In V it was the Soviets. In A I suppose you could consider Iran & who knows, maybe the Saudis.
        What you do have in both cases is a domestic element fighting to maintain or establish their presence. Okay, in A you have several domestic elements. Either way, we're still killing locals.

        "The Taliban, Mujadin etc have nothing in comparison with the the North Vietnamese"

        Well they are locals fighting an external force.

        "We do need to be there..."

        Why? I have serious doubts myself. The mess is less about finding Osama, establishing democracy, eliminating evil oppressors such as the Taliban (no, I don't like them either) or any other flavour of the month doctrine. What is really at stake is access to resources in Afghanistan & its' neighbours. Don't forget about all those former Soviet states to the north.

        "...the silent majority are happy to have us there."

        Oh my god! We still have one of those? Just as in the Vietnam days, the Silent Majority is too distracted with other issues - interest rates, beer, boat people & footy to really give a stuff - except around the end of April. In my recollection, in the glory days once a lad made 20 years of age & didn't get called up he breathed a sigh of relief & went surfing. The SM is absolute fiction.

  • David C :

    12 Mar 2010 11:32:02am

    If the reason for the Vietnam War was to halt the spread of communism through Asia then it was a success.
    What is the reason now for the Afghan expedition given we already ousted Bin Laden and his Taliban mates.

      • Mutley :

        12 Mar 2010 2:04:45pm

        David C,

        You have got to be joking! In case you didn't know, those god damn commies won the war and renamed Saigon to Ho Chi Min city.

        As for "halting the spread of communism" well that was just something made up by the military/industrial complex. Just like they have made up terrorism.

          • David C :

            13 Mar 2010 8:20:08pm

            I stand by my post, the aim of the war was to stop the spread of communism in SE Asia and to that aim it was a success.

              • thomas vesely :

                14 Mar 2010 10:42:29am

                what is your difficulty,vietnam is a communist country.

              • Anon :

                14 Mar 2010 6:11:41pm

                As a result of the cold war:

                -Vietnam is now a communist country.
                -And the USSR is now deceased.

                I think we could call that a good trade.

              • Az :

                16 Mar 2010 9:50:06am

                The US didn't win the the Cold War.

                China did.

              • David C :

                15 Mar 2010 9:26:54am

                What is yours? What did I actually say , I think it was something like "the spread of communism", last I looked Malaysia, Singapore, Thailand, Australia etc etc etc etc etc etc etc arent communist?

              • MJMI :

                15 Mar 2010 3:37:04pm

                I live in VN and it sure has a communist government. From close observation it seems to me that the views and wishes of the Vietnamese people are better represented in the National Assembly than my views are in Parliament House.

                My elected Member and Senators toe the party line and you would be hard pressed to slip a sheet of tissue paper between the major parties' stance on a whole raft of issues. Here no-one pretends that there is more than one party and there is genuine concern for the people. In Australia, real democracy seems to be being undermined by petty party politics and elected control freaks and show ponies.

      • Anon :

        12 Mar 2010 4:42:18pm

        Until the Afghan government is ready to protect itself, leaving now will simply allow the Taliban an opportunity to return.

          • Patrick of Redchide :

            12 Mar 2010 5:47:41pm

            Anon, you don't seem to realise that the Afghan govt is simply a small number of corrupt officials out to feather their own nests with the explicit support of some of the drug barons.

            These drug barons hated the Taliban because the Taliban were shutting down the drug trade.

              • Anon :

                12 Mar 2010 11:17:17pm

                You don't seem to realise that the taliban are growing drugs in the regions they control and using those drugs as a source of finance.

                UN reports have confirmed this.

              • Granny :

                13 Mar 2010 9:15:47am

                anon, again you get caught out bending the truth. The Taliban, from 1994 - 2000 banned the growing of opium. From 2004 - 2007 production increased, but it is not the Taliban growing it. There have been numerous photos published in The Guardian/Observer/Independent and other publications showing British troops guarding the crops. Why would they be guarding the crops? Not to prevent the Taliban from destroying them huh? Just look up Wikipaedia, opium production in Afghanistan,

              • Mark From Launceston :

                13 Mar 2010 1:36:07pm

                Granny it is you that have twisted the facts

                FACT:
                During the Taliban rule, Afghanistan saw a bumper opium crop of 4,500 metric tons in 1999

                (http://www.un.org/News/briefings/docs/2004/McCleanBriefing_041118.doc.htm)
                ....United nations PRESS CONFERENCE ON AFGHANISTAN OPIUM SURVEY 2004.

                In was actually in July 2000 that Taliban leader Mullah Mohammed Omar declared that growing poppies was un-Islamic, resulting in one of the world's most successful anti-drug campaigns. As a result of this ban, opium poppy cultivation was reduced by 91% from the previous year's estimate of 82,172 hectares. The ban was so effective that Helmand Province, which had accounted for more than half of this area, recorded no poppy cultivation during the 2001 season.

                By November 2001, the collapse of the economy and the scarcity of other sources of revenue forced many of the country's farmers to resort back to growing opium for export.(1,300 km² in 2004 according to the United Nations Office on Drugs and Crime.)


                So Granny don't correct other peoples facts unless you get them correct yourself. The ban lasted about 1-2 years only


              • Granny :

                15 Mar 2010 7:31:57am

                My info can be confirmed if you read 'Wikipedia Growing Opium in Afghanistan'. I would take any UN report with a grain of salt.

              • Mark From Launceston :

                13 Mar 2010 1:39:43pm

                On December 7, 2004, Hamid Karzai was formally sworn in as president of a democratic Afghanistan. (I use the word democratic loosley)

                Two of the following three growing seasons saw record levels of opium poppy cultivation. Corrupt officials may have undermined the government's enforcement efforts. Afghan farmers suggested that "government officials take bribes for turning a blind eye to the drug trade while punishing poor opium growers"

                http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/showthread.php?131245-Talking-To-The-Taliban-A-Poll-From-The-Front-Lines


                Another obstacle to getting rid of poppy cultivation in Afghanistan is the reluctant collaboration between US forces and Afghan warlords in hunting drug traffickers. In the absence of Taliban, the warlords largely control the opium trade but are also highly useful to the US forces in scouting, providing local intelligence, keeping their own territories clean from Al-Qaeda and Taliban insurgents, and even taking part in military operations.

                Former U.S. State Department Principal Deputy Assistant Secretary for the Bureau of International Narcotics and Law Enforcement Affairs Thomas Schweich, in a New York Times article dated July 27, 2007, asserts that opium production is protected by the government of Hamid Karzai as well as by the Taliban, as all parties to political conflict in Afghanistan as well as criminals benefit from opium production, and, in Schweich's opinion, the U.S. military turns a blind eye to opium production as not being central to its anti-terrorism mission

              • Anon :

                13 Mar 2010 3:03:12pm

                And once again Granny, you get caught lying.

                "The Taliban, from 1994 - 2000 banned the growing of opium"

                The taliban had bumper crops of Opium during their rule in 1994-2000. They only started to cut production on July 2000.

                "From 2004 - 2007 production increased, but it is not the Taliban growing it."

                UN reports have shown that the Taliban are involved both with the production, selling and smuggling of opium. They use it as a source of finance.

                And drug activity tends to spike in areas which the Taliban control.

                "There have been numerous photos... showing British troops guarding the crops. Why would they be guarding the crops?"

                Because otherwise the crops get taken, smuggled and processed into heroin. In many cases, by insurgents and their supporters.

                "Just look up Wikipaedia, opium production in Afghanistan"

                I did. And it confirms what I said.

              • Sea Mendez :

                14 Mar 2010 10:20:05am

                "And once again Granny, you get caught lying."

                The Taliban's current propaganda campaign has five themes (aimed at Pashtuns). One of them "Our Economy" is about the importance of poppy cultivation. Of course like all good politicians they might be lying.

                I have to repeat that granny once put it out that the IPCC had declared no glaciers were melting. The fact was that they had revised the rate of Himalayas glacier melting. Did granny admit she got it wrong?

                She regularly spins factual reporting in this way.
                If she's going to attack other people on accuracy she needs to address her own shortcomings.

              • Granny :

                15 Mar 2010 8:15:11am

                I corrected myself on that issue ages ago, pointing out that I omitted two words, but you neglected to read it, or deliberately ignored it. But then you have implied that it is impossible to pay off a home mortgage without resorting to doing something illegal. It is you who needs to address your shortcomings, you make a case for something, then deny it. You liken yourself to being an orca, really you are more like a sardine, or a goldfish.

              • Sea Mendez :

                15 Mar 2010 5:18:21pm

                "I corrected myself on that issue ages ago, pointing out that I omitted two words, but you neglected to read it, or deliberately ignored it"

                Well I'm sorry I missed it granny. And I apologise for my part in the misunderstanding.

                Now how about the US Senate report that did not say the military deliberately let Bin Laden go?

              • gremlin :

                13 Mar 2010 1:19:11pm

                FYI

                "Production and refining exploded as the Afghan mujahedin, with the connivance of Western intelligence agencies, traded in drugs to finance their war against the Russians, with results that can be seen in the streets of Western cities as well as Peshawar.

                The culture of narcotics, guns and criminality has taken a terrible toll in Pakistan, where there are more than three million heroin addicts and several senior politicians, military officers and policemen have been implicated in drug-running. Most of the drugs which reach the West now go out through Iran, which has half a million addicts of its own. But even though Pakistan and the Taliban in Afghanistan have almost stamped out poppy growing in the areas they control, the Afghan regime has done nothing to stop the refining and export of heroin from huge stockpiles within their borders."

          • ant :

            12 Mar 2010 6:19:35pm

            After 30 years of war Anon and having their country reduced to a devastated wreck and being occupied by the Americans you now expect them to 'protect themselves' - from who? In 1978 Afghanistan had a secular government that wanted to have trade unions, educate women and have separation of church and state but they also had links to the Soviet Union and William Casey, Director of the CIA, Ronald Reagan and other assorted ratbags saw their chance to give the Russians their own Vietnam. This secular government also wanted land reform but many of the mullahs were big land owners and completely opposed (in particular) to educating women. Hey presto, before you could say proxy war there were the Mujaheddin who were mainly recruited from the estimated four million people who had fled into Pakistan to escape the war. They later became the Taliban. The Russians had half a million troops in Afghanistan in the end. It WAS their Vietnam and they lost the war and the government collapsed - just as the CIA and Reagan wanted. The Americans had armed and funded the Muhajeddin, forerunners of the Taliban for their own purposes and now they are fighting a colonial war there- again for their own geo-political purposes none of which have anything to do with defending America or helping the Afghan people. It's a cynical and deceitful exercise which plays with people as if they're chess pieces on a board.

      • Mark From launceston :

        13 Mar 2010 9:56:16am

        If you ask the many Asian leaders from Singapore, Thailand, Mayasia or the Phillipenes then they would tell you they think the Vietnam War achiebed its aims...."Stopping the psread of Communisim".

        I heard the Sinagporian PM , Lee kwon Yu give a speech on it. He basically said although the battle was lost he thought the overall war was won. It gave the surronding countries a chance to arm and prepare themselves. It helped them get stable governments.

        I still beleive the reasons for going to war in Vietnam were correct. How they went about the war though was wrong. If the US had "attacked" the war the same way the ANZACS did, I think the result would have been differant.
        The area the ANZACS controlled (Phuoc Tuy Province), was reletively peaceful due to the way they engaged the locals and bulit schools and hospitals. Yes they had one major battle,(long Tan) but aside from that By 1971 the province had been largely cleared of local VC forces.

          • Earle Qaeda :

            13 Mar 2010 1:38:01pm

            "The area the ANZACS controlled (Phuoc Tuy Province), was reletively peaceful due to the way they engaged the locals and bulit schools and hospitals. "

            So it's true? Just like we see on ADF recruitment videos? What our military really excells at is building social infrastructure? I began suspecting this particular truth when just a couple of short years ago I was shown the same thing repeatedly on the news. Apparently our military makes great use of a sweet looking blonde gal wearing camo who romps & plays with Indigenous children.

            Damn! If only they'd told me that my required military experience would involve activities that appealled to my social conscience then boy, I would have jumped to the front of the queue.

            When we consider the impact of the Vietnam conflict on other nations in the region I have to wonder why there wasn't greater & more consistent participation by the neighbours. I distinctly recall South Korea in particular arriving substantially late to the event then marching out again after a very short stay when its' US subsidy finished. Yeah they were motivated.

            But Mark, I will agree with you in the long philosophical term...
            "...the reasons for going to war in Vietnam were correct" but only because in light of the global situation at the time, there really was no other thing that could happen. Everyone was all fired up about communists & it was either have it out on the distant stage of Vietnam or let the West, the Russians & Chinese go at it for real with the nukes.

            We could have taken a deep breath, stepped back & thought of a peaceful solution but heck, when does that ever work huh? Anyway, now we're playing with another set of "...ists". I suppose once we're done with terrorists we can finally make a move against guitarists... accordionists. Sometimes I wish banjo playing could be expressed as an "ism".

              • Mark From Launceston :

                14 Mar 2010 9:35:29am

                Earle

                Soth Korea forces numbered 312,853 in 1968 at the height of troups (http://www.history.army.mil/books/Vietnam/allied/)
                first South Korean troops began arriving in 1964 and large combat battalions began arriving a year later, with the South Koreans soon developing a reputation for effectiveness. The Koreans started arriving shortly after the US Marines in 1965, they kept coming, and they stayed and fought until the end, in 1973.

                http://www.talkingproud.us/International061406WhiteHorse.html

                So I don't know where you got your information on South Korea from.

              • Mark From Launceston :

                14 Mar 2010 9:41:04am

                I think if all parties had taken the "Canadian way" then it would have ended up aliot better.

                Canada had 6 points on entering



                It had to involve cultural and trade ties in addition to a military alliance.

                It had to demonstrably meet the will of the people in the countries involved.

                Other free Asian states had to support it directly or in principle.

                France had to refer the conflict to United Nations.

                Any multilateral action must conform to the UN charter.

                Any action had to be divorced from all elements of colonialism

  • Sinekal :

    12 Mar 2010 11:25:51am

    As a Vietnam era Nasho I fell for the chest beating and fear campaigns that got the politicians elected and thereafter accompanied them. I did my bit to stop the communists taking our land and eating our babies.

    As a visitor to Long Tan in 2007 I finally buried the last traces of the poison I was filled with in the late 60's and early 70's.

    The 'hearts and minds' campaign of the political idealists in Vietnam was countered by an American general who commented 'grab em by the balls and their hearts and minds will soon follow'.

    Elections in Afganistan will not deliver peace, only change the target. As much as I am opposed to communist doctrine, it has at least delivered peace in places like Laos and Vietnam. Sure the quality of life and opportunity are typically limited but it beats the hell out of war or tribal skirmishes.

    Anyone who thinks the sectarian and factional fighting in Afghanistan will cease when elections determine Governments is stark barking mad.

    Winners ? Only big business in the arms and associated industries and the politicians they support with their profits, who in turn support them with arms purchases.

      • sinnical :

        12 Mar 2010 5:54:38pm

        Thank you Sinekal for a reasoned and common sense post.

        I too am apposed to Communist doctrine as I am equally apposed to the American religious right.

        But not liking someone's doctrine is miles away from killing and enslaving them for it.

  • granny :

    12 Mar 2010 11:03:25am

    What a pity nobody has thought of setting up a panel of peacemakers, made up of both Islamic and Western thinkers to sort out a solution to Afghanistan. There is so much corruption in Afghanistan which needs to be curtailed. The ordinary Afghan people deserve some peace in their lifetime.

      • sinnical :

        12 Mar 2010 5:56:42pm

        Granny, other than the Drug lords and their followers, in most cases 'the ordinary Afghan people' are known as the Taliban.

          • Anon :

            12 Mar 2010 11:10:23pm

            Complete bull.

            The ordinary people are not the taliban. They are simply forced to obey the taliban via threats.

            The taliban are the ones growing drugs and using it as a source of finance. Didn't you get the memo?

              • Sinekal :

                13 Mar 2010 2:50:28am

                What memo would that be Anon ? Would it be from someone speaking on condition of anonymity or from some unamed source or direct from any one of twenty or so spook organisations demonising the Taliban? They don't need demonising as they are already more frightful than can be imagined. It is evil enough just sticking to facts.

                Taliban growing opium ? Not so... Farmers do that and farmers are not taliban (which means student) It is possible that elements of the Taliban might collect some taxes from farmers who do grow it. It is more likely organised crime from overseas deal with it.

                Remember that in 2001 the Taliban had reduced Afghanistans opium production to under 10% of the worlds total. (By UN figures) After the liberation of Afghanistan from the Taliban by we symbols of freedom, opium production grew exponentially and by 2008 was back to over 90% of the worlds total production without the Taliban having any involvement.

              • Anon :

                13 Mar 2010 3:13:22pm

                We are both anonymous, sinekal. You just call yourself by a different name.

                The taliban threaten, force or otherwise convince farmers to grow opium. They smuggle it, sell it and get finance from it.

                And if you bother to check facts, you would know that the Taliban allowed opium production to reach bumper levels during their rule.

                They only started a surprise ban in July 2000, which was shortly before the regime fell anyway.

              • Sinekal :

                13 Mar 2010 6:40:06pm

                Anon I read again what I wrote and know from research to be accurate.. that by 2001 Afghanistan had reduced its opium production to less than 10% of the worlds total. I re state that opium is grown by farmers not a minority of fanatical Muslim scholars.

                Then I read your closing line of a surprise ban in July 2000 which was shortly before the regime fell (read invasion by UN sanctioned forces ) The capacity of the Taliban to sustain their opium ban was shattered by the UN.

                The UN invasion allowed the Afghan farmers to start opium production again without interference by UN occupying forces. Why? Why then are we not holding the UN responsible if their forces failed to control it?

                Or are all the UN soldiers from a number of countries including Australia incapable of tracking thousands of tonnes of opium exports from roads and ports of Afghanistan ?

                I am no supporter of the Taliban, they are a warped and despicable minority of radicals but we are asked to believe they are capable of deceiving the UN with their alleged opium activities. Not without a blind eye or ten they aren't.

              • Anon :

                14 Mar 2010 1:56:08pm

                And how, exactly, do you think the Taliban enforced their ban?

                Do you think we should use similar tactics?

              • Sinekal :

                14 Mar 2010 5:54:34pm

                Without killing innocent civilians and for about 10% of the current budget we could spray the lot and pay the farmers.

  • MadJak :

    12 Mar 2010 10:57:16am

    Mate!

    Wars are best conducted in someone elses patch.

    I am utterly convinced that without the NATO involvement in Afghanistan, we would have seen much more in the form of attacks in our backyard.



      • Sinekal :

        12 Mar 2010 12:50:42pm

        Like your name choice MadJak.

        If we hadn't been killing their mothers, fathers daughters and sons on their home soil for a hundred years or more they would still be fighting each other as they have done for centuries. We would be ignored.

        Seems it is only wrong when they try to kill us on our home soil.

          • Patrick of Redcliffe :

            12 Mar 2010 2:02:38pm

            Sinekal - you make no sense as Australia became a county in 1901 I dont see that we have been "..... for a hundred years or more".

              • Sinekal :

                12 Mar 2010 5:17:50pm

                Patrick Australia sent troops to WW1 to fight in Europe By my reckoning that started 94 years ago... So you cannot allow 4 years to let you see sense. Hmmm interesting.. Your capacity to see sense has a tolerance factor of 4% variable. Is that a statistical norm for Republican sympathisers also I wonder?

                That aside, I used the rhetorical 'we' as in the christian West. Again your inability to see sense is perhaps more an indictment of your politics than any relevant objection.

              • phil :

                12 Mar 2010 7:00:57pm

                we havent been killing in afghanistan for 94 years.

              • Sinekal :

                13 Mar 2010 1:04:46am

                Yawn, Phil read a bit of history. The British with the assistance of deposed King Shah Shuja invaded Afghanistan in 1836. You are quite right.. it was not 94 years at all. It was more than 170 years ago. From 1839 until 1842 they fought the British and inflicted massive defeat.

                In 1878 the British invaded again. In 1880 the British departed with some claimed foreign influence.

                1921 and the British invaded again and were defeated again.

                Starting to see just a little thread here yet? Those events are actually called the three Anglo-Afghan wars and might go a little way to understanding why Afghans are not particularly interested in being rescued by the West.

                Just as we fail to distinguish between both Afghan tribes and Muslim sects so do they see us all as Christians.. British, American or Australian.. people who have invaded at their country at least 4 times now.

              • phil :

                13 Mar 2010 11:59:53pm

                yawn
                yes the british killed the afhgans in 1921 then we we went back there in 2001 so thats 90 years of afghanistan not getting invaded. and last time i checked australia didnt invade afghansitan in 1921

              • Sinekal :

                14 Mar 2010 11:32:31am

                Phil you just don't get it do you.. got any relatives called Bush, Perle, Cheney, Wolfowitz or Howard?

                The west is as much a single evil entity to Muslims in Afghanistan and Iraq (and elsewhere) as Islam is to the west. Why ? Because of the way the hostility is sold by the religious and political leaders of each group to further their own territorial, economic and social objectives.

                I recall Bush invaded Iraq to stop the spread of world terrorism lead by a Saudi living in Pakistan (or Afghanistan) Ah yes.. but you see he was Muslim. So whether it was Britain or Australia or the USA who invaded Afghanistan is equally irrelevant. The Christians did it in the same way the Muslims did the World Trade Centre.

                The irony of that was that Sadaam Hussien had nothing but contempt for Osama Bin Laden, something that should have made him a western ally, not an invasion target.

                You can be protector and apologist for the neo conservatives .. democracy allows that. Just accept that not everyone with an alternative view is a jihadist or islamic sympathiser. If someone threatens me or my family I will not be asking their religion before I retaliate. That should please you.

              • phil :

                14 Mar 2010 3:29:34pm

                no id ont have any relatives called "Bush, Perle, Cheney, Wolfowitz or Howard" seeing as iam of maltese descent. its amazing how people go on about the evil west yet they still live here and forget all the good things the west have created. secondly im not conservative seeing as i am more likely to vote for the greens party but i am an idealist.

                what does iraq have to do with this your first reply was about afghanistan, now its about iraq seems to me you have no idea what you are writing about, infact your argument makes no sense.

              • thomas vesely :

                14 Mar 2010 10:47:58am

                not yet

      • Earle Qaeda :

        12 Mar 2010 1:41:30pm

        Let me begin my response with a deeply considered "ppfffftttt"!

        Skip up a few posts & see what Sinekal has to say. Seems that you're not quite sure exactly which war you are commenting on - that "our own backyard" rubbish is straight out of the 'Vietnam War for Dummies'.

        Think pipelines, think oil. Think about securing a region so as to best exploit its' resources & those of the neighbouring former Soviet states. Think Afghanistan.

        And NATO? Think tokenism. If enough non-concerned nations can be conscripted somehow we get to believe that the US effort is justified.

        MadJak indeed. Are we talking "mad" as in angry or "mad" as in extremely foolish & ill advised?

  • Budovski :

    12 Mar 2010 10:18:13am

    Thanks for the accurate and critical assessment of the situation Bruce. It is good to see someone finally paint a realistic image of the operation in Afghanistan. A fruitless, endless war that has ludicrous aims is only going to make Afghanistan worse. Supporting a corrupt and unpopular government will only make us less popular. This has been going on for almost 9 years and nothing has changed. Bomb villages, hide in compounds, support corrupt government. These are the 3 main achievements of the US occupation of Afghanistan....

      • Mark From launceston :

        13 Mar 2010 10:01:03am

        I heard a reporter say that what the people want is stability and to live their lives.

        POeople will group towards whatever force that is. Most Afghanistan's don't support the extreme Islamists ideals, but they give thempeace and rid them of corruption.
        It is what happend in South Vietnam and what happend in CUBA. Having right wing death squads and corruption while people starve will only lead to revolution.

  • Az :

    12 Mar 2010 9:54:11am

    "America learnt little from the war in Vietnam."

    America (the Fed Govt.) learnt that public relations was a game of percentages, not absolutes. The media policy for Afghanistan was very different to Vietnam.

    And tactically, both sets of generals couldn't see past the cost of their own ordinance. A fighter defending (or avenging) their family is worth ten over-trained, over-paid Western grunts.

    America and it's allies were never going to "win
    Afghanistan, which means our leaders knew this and went ahead anyway or our leaders did not know and are morons. Both are scary prospects.

  • annie f :

    12 Mar 2010 9:47:55am

    All troops should pull out now, whatever the outcome the country will ultimately descend into tribal fundamentalism. The West should just leave ships in the Gulf to bomb the crap out of any terrorist training camps that come to light. Why waste more dollars and lives on radical islamists.

  • Me2 :

    12 Mar 2010 9:37:30am

    So Clive believes our soldiers are dying in a folly war only to beef up our alliance with America, someone should tell our diggers that.

      • Az :

        12 Mar 2010 10:31:03am

        We've been trying for nine years. Seems they don't know or don't care.

          • phil :

            12 Mar 2010 12:39:23pm

            how would you no,what if they believe in what there doing over there, maybe you should stop hiding behind computer and go over there and inform them yourself instead of staying in a safe country for once.

              • Az :

                12 Mar 2010 1:17:21pm

                I just assumed if they did know or care they'd refuse to fight. There's nothing ethical about being in Afghanistan, uninvited, with a rifle and a licence to kill.

                If some Israeli pilots can risk court-martial refusing to bomb Palestinians, I would have thought some Aussie diggers able to manage it.

                Maybe they even are, it's just not publicised for obvious reasons. The dirt will come out in time.

              • phil :

                12 Mar 2010 1:30:09pm

                sorry if i offended Az

                but i believe the troops are just doing there jobs. its not there fault there over there its the government. why civilians are getting killed and that is tragic, you do have to admit we have done some good things over there such as schools. roads, hospitals and womens rights. can we win this war i dont no only time will tell.

              • Sinekal :

                14 Mar 2010 11:47:39am

                phil, 'we have done some goods things over there' Would 'we' be Australians or also the USA and Britain? 'we' Australians haven't built a damn thing. So 'we' is the collective invaders right ? Pity 'we' bombed and destroyed all the buildings we are now paying our sub contractors to re build.

                Except if you read factual reports rather than Uncle Sam's publicity machine the achievment level is quite low and most of the money goes to US contractors. Then of course there is the 4 billion US$ of military bases being constructed.

                Little bit like Vietnam, the comparison which commenced this debate. Seems that the good old apple pie USA forgot to spend most of the 750 million rebuilding programme promised there or gave it to its own countries businesses.

              • phil :

                14 Mar 2010 3:17:23pm

                oh really well according to the australian
                http://www.theage.com.au/world/afghanistan-more-troops-more-fighting-20091202-k67g.html

                "71 village-level infrastructure projects, 11 health centres, 15 schools, 1000 microfinance loans, 71,000 square metres of farming land cleared of mines".

                and the abc http://www.abc.net.au/am/content/2008/s2383664.htm

                so plz go on about killing civilians, yet its amazing you dont mention anything of casualties killed by the talibans suicide bombers. and do you have a source for thats U.s base

              • Sinekal :

                15 Mar 2010 12:03:29am

                Phil, I will take my dose of humble pie re Australia having some village construction history. At least we may be building what we knocked down.

                I will not back off for one moment on the beat up, falsehoods and demonisation that are used to maintain a presence in Afghanistan.

                Here is your 4 billion worth of USA military spending. Guess they just plan to walk away when the job is done right? Like they have from 700 other military installations they occupy outside the USA. . http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/01/12/AR2009011203015.html

              • phil :

                15 Mar 2010 8:55:25am

                thanks for posting the link, i feel like we have gotten off to a rough start, it nice to have a discussion with someone.

                i think the reasons were in afghanistan is not to build a pipeline but to stabalise a country that has known nothing of war for 30 yrs. so whats your way of stabalising the country and stopping the taliban. secondly that link doesnt mention if the base will still be used be the U.S after they withdraw in 2012. and dont compare the australian troops to the american, a majority of a troops are doing reconstruction work it only the special forces who are fighting.

                thanks phil

              • Sinekal :

                15 Mar 2010 11:32:34am

                Phil this is getting positively bonding !

                I agree the pipeline was never the primary plan. That happened subsequently and by default after all the effort that went into arming the northern mujahadeen to defeat the Russians. That was the objective. Tie up the Russians for as long as possible and it worked.

                During that time the opium industry flourished because it was the only funding source Afghans could use to fund further military purchases for the same anti Russian objective.

                Only after the power vacuum left by the defeat of the Russians and the total lack of interest from the west, did the Taliban emerge from the south and from Pakistan.

                The Taliban did not start or increase opium production, they inherited it from the mujahadeen and undoubtedly accepted some of the profits it generated. They also virtually eliminated it in 2000 prior to the UN invasion. Then under UN control of Afghanistan, the whole trade flourished again for the second time under western inaction.

                Yes the Taliban are a collection of misguided murderers and fanatics rejected even by many other Muslims. Remember that the Taliban are not the Government in Afghanistan, neither do they have the support of the UN peacekeepers. So I used to be mystified as to why the UN, the USA and other supportive countries would publicly concede the control of the opium trade to them.

                Now I am inclined to the thought that the UN and allies dont have an objective about the reduction of opium production at all, but want someone else to blame and the Taliban are a good fit.

              • phil :

                15 Mar 2010 3:32:22pm

                we both finally found something we can agree with the taliban are crazy. maybe we cant control the opium due to a backlash from the afghan farmers.

              • meat head :

                14 Mar 2010 12:51:43pm

                sarge: why did you shoot that little girl?
                me: just doin my job sir.
                sarge: ok, carry on.

                the Nuremberg defense is a little outdated, and doesnt apply any more. from wiki

                The Nuremberg Defense is a legal defense that essentially states that the defendant was "only following orders" ("Befehl ist Befehl", literally "order is order") and is therefore not responsible for his crimes. The defense was most famously employed during the Nuremberg Trials, after which it is named.

                Before the end of World War II, the Allies suspected such a defense might be employed, and issued the London Charter of the International Military Tribunal (IMT), which specifically stated that following an unlawful order is not a valid defense against charges of war crimes.

                Thus, under Nuremberg Principle IV, "defense of superior orders" is not a defense for war crimes, although it might influence a sentencing authority to lessen the penalty. Nuremberg Principle IV states:

                "The fact that a person acted pursuant to order of his Government or of a superior does not relieve him from responsibility under international law, provided a moral choice was in fact possible to him."

      • Arthur 1 :

        12 Mar 2010 11:52:48am

        The soldiers are trained to fight,not to reason why,until they have been to war,then the ones who can still think,may change their minds.

          • kika :

            12 Mar 2010 1:37:01pm

            These soldiers are paid to fight. They do it for the money. Not for the country.

              • Joseph Goebbels :

                14 Mar 2010 2:37:53am

                Mercenary -adj. primarily concerned with or working for money etc. -n. hired soldier in foreign service. [Latin from merces, reward]

  • Brett :

    12 Mar 2010 9:27:34am

    No one cares, not the pollies, no one army and no the man in the street. And so big arms dealers make lots of money and people died in another forgotten war just like Iraq, Vietnam, Korea the list is endless..........

  • rED bARON :

    12 Mar 2010 9:26:39am

    I always wonder when we grovel at the mention of the American alliance.
    Firstly the Japs had no intension of invading Australia. And the only time ANZUS was mentioned by Australia in "help us" terms, we were told to get well and truly knotted.
    And each time we ask for favorable trade treatment in exchange for our dead we get the same answer.

      • pmg :

        12 Mar 2010 11:55:07am

        I agree with you. The only logical reason I see for the alliance is insurance against the US invading us at some futute point. It makes no sense otherwise as there is no guarantee they would support us against any other adversary and we only diminish ourselves as a nation by blindly supporting every military adventure they embark upon.

          • dubious the third :

            13 Mar 2010 11:09:17am

            As Masharef said, he was told "If you're not with us, we'll bomb you back to the stone age".
            At that point in time, the yanks knew all about AWB bribes in Iraq, so what did they say to the rodent?

      • Donakdoz :

        14 Mar 2010 12:19:08pm

        I agree RED BARON, but everyone seems to forget that we have 240million Muslems cosying up on our doorstep. We just may need the Alliance.

  • JohnnoH :

    12 Mar 2010 9:13:00am

    Afghanistan does appear to be a big mistake, especially that reports of the FBI not being able to establish a link between Osama Bin Laden and the 9/11 aircraft kamikazi raids. If this is the case, what is the reason for the invasion of Afghanistan? Both sides of teh Australian Parliament will be held accountable for this.

  • ant :

    12 Mar 2010 8:15:05am

    Yes, the similarities are many. But the biggest one for me is that the invasion of Vietnam was based on the Bay of Tonkin incident, where Americans were allegedly attacked by some Vietnamese. But as Daniel Ellsberg found out when he got his hands on the Top Secret Pentagon Papers this incident never happened. It was manufactured so the US could get the Congress to agree to the invasion.

    The United States invaded Afghanistan on a similar lie. The 9/11 attacks did not include the involvement of any Afghan citizens, even the constructed narrative of the US government and military admits this, but by claiming Osama bin Laden and the Taliban were involved in the planning and funding of the attacks they gave themselves a fig leaf of cover for their invasion. The invasion of Afghanistan was sold to the establishment as collective punishment for something no Afghan was involved in. This was the mistake, since it's always a mistake to go to war on a lie. Iraq also had no involvement in 9/11.

    Both of these wars were immoral acts of aggression not taken in self-defence but rather from the model of all colonial wars: a foreign nation arrives and 'civilizes'(meaning oppresses, exploits, robs and kills) the natives. The question is, shouldn't they first civilize themselves, in which case they won't undertake colonial wars to seize the resources of others and build military bases on their soil. America has 700 military bases all over the world. The really frightening question is, why? Why do they need 700 military bases when they have every weapon a nation could conceivably have, including nuclear, chemical and biological, and one of the biggest armies in the world and couldn't be invaded by any other nation? It's called empire building, isn't it?

      • Earle Qaeda :

        12 Mar 2010 1:45:41pm

        Yep. To be more accurate, the Tonkin event was the catalyst for the US to commence bombing the North. There already was a US presence in South Vietnam - initially as advisers but you know, once you get your foot in the door....

          • Geoff Hastwell :

            12 Mar 2010 10:57:58pm

            Lines from a (very much longer) song: 'For An Audience Which Believes in Vietnam'

            'It all began in Vietnam, so many tears away -
            American advice for free, on one fine tropical day.
            Though it really was a civil war, we had to take a hand -
            "Those radicals who criticise, they do not understand!"
            Politicians said it, you thought it must be so,
            Conscripted and condemned our boys
            To Desolation Row...."

            Thank you B. Dylan, for the tune!